Nice guy

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A nice guy is a term usually used ironically to refer to a male who is overly meek, unconfident, square, or approval seeking.[1] He will always see to the needs of others before himself, even if his own needs ultimately go unmet.[2] Often relating to terms such as white knight, beta male, beta provider, etc. Women often refer to guys as "nice" or "sweet" if they aren't attracted to them (as a more polite way of saying "wimp" or "pussy"). Interestingly the etymology of the word "nice" traces back to a term essentially meaning "pedantic" or "foolish" rather than a compliment as it is often used today.

Aggressive_Beta notes, "Women are not turned off by niceguys for being assholes, delusional, boring, manipulative, entitled, or truly nice. Niceguys turn women off because they are betas. They are either physically unattractive, their game/frame is terrible, they have poor social status, or some combination of the factors that gives them low SMV."[3]

Relation to feminism[edit]

Comicus notes that "the places with the nicest guys have the angriest feminists".[4] Whisper notes:[5]

In an environment full of patriarchal males, the strong expectations of those males set the norm... and women are perfectly happy obeying so long as the specific expectations are not in themselves overwhelmingly painful and horrific. Women don't care about abstractions like "freedom". They care about concrete things like safety and comfort. They are perfectly happy being slaves so long as they are generally safe and comfortable, and things are fun once in a while.

In an environment with meek males, women have no set of male expectations to conform to, so they don't know what to do, and very quickly they start looking at other women to see what they are doing, and follow along.

But all of those other women are looking around them in the same way. This means that an imitated behaviour can spread like wildfire, becoming more and more exaggerated as it spreads and loops back on itself.

One thing women frequently do is try to get what they want from a man by accusing him of being a big meanie.

When this particular behaviour spreads out of control through an entire population, we call it "feminism".


A typical nice guy won't mind waiting a long time to move a relationship or other interaction with a girl forward (to the point of hesitating beyond the escalation window); expects points for being nice (even though niceness is common); gets upset when the world doesn't play fair; believes that being good will attract women without the need for him to advertise himself; consumes a lot of media; thinks women are victims of men; is extra soft, friendly, and gentle with women; doesn't have any interests or passions that involve triumphing over other men; cannot understand why women want bad boys; thinks women don't really like sex; believes he must promise a relationship in order to get sex; and cannot believe any girl would want him just for sex.[6]

Troy Francis notes, "I’m not saying that women don’t value these traits, or that they don’t end up with men who possess them. What I am saying is that they don’t find them inherently attractive."[7]

Commitment sluttiness[edit]

bsutansalt notes:[8]

"Nice guys give to get."

Guys who do that are what I call "commitment sluts" in that they give away freely the commitment benefits men have to offer without first being in a proper relationship.

To borrow from a related thread, relationships are, broadly speaking, a trade. The man provides emotional intimacy, the woman provides physical intimacy. A slut is not respected because she provides physical intimacy without requiring emotional intimacy in return. She has sold herself cheap and in doing so devalues women's primary asset: their sexuality/fertility (this is why most slut shaming is done by women). A "nice-guy" provides emotional intimacy and/or other benefits to a woman without requiring physical intimacy in return. He has sold himself cheap, and likewise is not respected.

That's why we say women are the gatekeepers to sex and men the gatekeepers to commitment. Sluts sell sex cheaply and low value men will give commitment at the drop of a hat, and neither are very respected by the other gender. If you ever find yourself in this position with a woman you're attracted to, odds are you've landed in the friendzone and are the woman's orbiter. Time to put some distance between you two and stop doing her any favors.

Unattractiveness to Women[edit]

In attempting to game women nice guys typically try to convince women what a gentleman they are and how unlike all of those "brutish men" they are.[9]

In practice however this version of game is usually less effective at attracting women due to alpha qualities like strength, courage, and dominance playing a stronger role in generating attraction; this is due to the fact that in hunter gatherer societies where humans originated, the men who were the strongest and the most courageous were also generally the best providers; and while the playing field has become more level today due to modern civilization, allowing the mild mannered accountant or computer programmer to potentially earn more income than the MMA fighter or amateur bodybuilder, or even the inner city gang leader, human biology has not adapted with the changing environment.

While some "nice" traits in men are useful in long term relationships, they tend to be less linked to purely physical attraction than the "strong" traits, and if overdone in absence of alpha traits often backfire and make a man seem weak, needy, and dependent on a woman's approval, thereby killing attraction.

In reality however the "age old question" of why "good girls" fall for "bad boys" could be easily answered simply by a layman's understanding of human biology. As the question isn't really much harder to answer than why the 250 lb female Marine corps drill instructor who moonlights as an bear wrestler gets less attention from men than the slim 20 year old college girl despite the former thinking men should be impressed with how much she can bench press. Her accomplishments in the male arena take away from her femininity, much as the man who's overly nice is behaving in an effeminate way.

Some theories on why women can't stand nice guys are that nice guys' personalities don't seem genuine, while bad boys "keep it real"; women can't respect (and therefore can't be attracted to) men who let a woman control them, rather than setting boundaries or making any real demands; nice guys are too predictable, aren't exciting, and are never a challenge; nice guys don't need to be saved by a woman's nurturing love; nice guys don't have a need to "to be fixed" that distracts the woman from what needs to be fixed in her own life; nice guys will eventually want a commitment, which is scary to a woman who is afraid of intimacy; nice guys make women who think poorly of themselves uncomfortable by treating them better than those women treat themselves; women think nice guys might not be willing to manhandle them in bed, take control, and give them mind-blowing sex; nice guys don't always know what to say and are sometimes at a loss for words; and nice guys often aren't as strong physically.[10]


Conventional society greatly overemphasizes the importance of the "nice" traits while ignoring or in many cases demonizing the "strong" traits, leading to many young men, especially those raised by single mothers or absent a strong male role model to develop a warped, outmoded, Victorian era view of the relationship and dating scene.[11]

This often leads to various dysfunctions; with many males growing up to become beta providers or cucklolds controlled by domineering wives, as well as many males developing resentment towards women or other men when they see "bad boys" getting more attention from women despite viewing themselves as the "statistically" better choice.[citation needed]

According to Derek Baroni:

Nice Guys are actually cultivated by society on purpose. The reasoning behind this is that a woman must never suffer the consequences of her actions. Hence, there will always be a fresh batch of Nice Guys to cushion her fall and provide her with free meals, free housing, and a sperm donation. There is nothing wrong with Nice Guys as long as you are not one of them."[12]

Charles Wickelus notes:

The backlash against the Vietnam War had created a class of males who based their masculinity an non-assertiveness, empathy, and avoiding conflict. Finally, the female-dominated educational system—coupled with single motherhood—created men that only understood women as authority figures. Instead of being people whom men could expect love and kindness, women became tyrants who had to be pleased at all costs.[13]

It has been noted, "Mothers will tell their sons that the only way to get a girl is to be really nice to her, while in the past these mothers had their pussies battered by bad boys to the point where they can't even walk into a meat deli without being accused of theft."[14]


Emmanuel Goldstein notes that anger is an early-stage reaction to the social consequences of being a nice guy in which some budding players will tend to get "stuck":

Now, it's fine to take issue with how the world is proceeding, especially with how women are behaving. But when a man is consistently angry that women fuck 'bad boys' while ignoring 'nice guys,' he is announcing that he’s still a bitch.[15]

"The only way out is through," in this case, through bargaining, despair, and finally acceptance.

See also[edit]